To see my nation so divided, over truth...

-----Original Message-----
From: Citizen X
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 10:50 AM
To: Citizen Y
Subject: The election

Have to admit. . .after reading the transcript of Bin Laden's tape, Nader looks like a better choice than Kerry or Bush. Really another one of those situations where new information makes things clearer. For instance, I thought the same reasons for the guerilla warfare and such, but I didn't necessarily understand how guerilla tactics win.

I'd really like to hear if Kerry has any reaction to the tape, though. If not, I think I may very well vote Nader, even though domestically and other things, Kerry does look like a step in a better direction (especially since during his DNC speech, he did make a reference against the Saud family). I guess there's a matter of weighing the realistic vs the idealistic & how much change our country's willing to take.

Then again, will the country trust the tape, especially with all the propaganda about how the terrorists want to take away the America people's freedom and life, that they just want to destroy for the sake of destruction. I never could believe that part, even though I did find the whole suicide bombing thing completely irrational and useless as it destroys the self (even though with coerced forcing of prisoners doing suicide bombing. . .). When it comes to nationalism, though, it does make sense. It seems to make more sense than Ghandi trying to convince Europe to surrender to Hitler. . ..

Any comments on your part?

Citizen X

-----Original Message-----
From: Citizen Y
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 11:46 AM
To: Citizen X
Subject: RE: The election

1- Do u have a link to that transcript?

2- I fear that the tape might do Kerry ill, even thought it should do Bush ill.

3- I hear the Kerry Camp put out a statement, but I don't know what John Kerry said (if anything) about the tape. The statement went something like this, 'D'oh, the president said Bin Laden was not a threat... Then how come he's issuing threats from secret locations still, huh? huh? huh? huh? ...yeah we knew u didn't have an answer.' of course I paraphrase here ;)

4- My reaction is that of, "LAME!" If Bin Laden had something up his sleeves he'd have done it, he's not going to issue warnings. But if I understand him right he's saying that Bush is lame, and this is not good for Kerry (I think).

BTW I still can get over the fact that Bush's 1st oil company was with the Bin Laden Family. That and the whole well-timed leak of the tape are very interesting to me. As for Nader, I do feel safe to vote for him living in MASS, but I am frightened that Bush will win. More so then I have ever been of any election I've ever seen. Hell I can't say that I've ever been frightened of an election... I feel like I'm living in Germany during the rise of the 3rd rike... Yeah I know that seems a bit of a stretch, but come on we have our own SS now and we're occupying other countries against world opinion. All we need is for Bush to claim we need "Breathing Room" now that would be scary!

So anyway since Bush makes Mitt look like a great guy, and lets face it Mitt's the Pitts! [ Hey I should make that into a campaign slogan for the next round of gubernatorial elections ;) ] I'm sitting around wondering where Bush supporters are coming from and I keep getting back to a few things 1) is that his supports are not actually informed, 2) is that people want a pop-culture icon, and 3) MONEY MAKES THE WORLD SPIN 'ROUND!!!! All of which are ridicules... And can some one please punch Colin Quinn in the eye and tell he the reason people in the middle-east don't like us COULD BE that we sold 2 side in a war weapons to kill each other and have backed/trained people like Saddam and Bin Laden. Call me crazy but that kind of think may have pissed some people off.

Okay so I'm done but I'm still scared as shit that Bush will win, and the dirty bomb will hit the fan. You know I caught that comic strip Boondocks, in the paper. (It's that strip with the too-smart-for-his-age young back kid and his view of the world around him.) He came up to his grand dad and asked him to hold on to something for him in case things go awry. When his grand dad opened up the package he screamed "NON-REFUNDABLE ONE WAY TICKETS TO CANADA!!" And while I can see why some people are feeling this (I too have got the Swiss-bug in my ear from Vanessa), I can't help thinking that it the easy way out. We who think it's not going right need to stand up, not unlike Ralph Nader, to help make some changes. It's hard work, but nothing really important's ever easy (or so they say).

'Nuff Said (for now)!

- Citizen Y

-----Original Message-----
From: Citizen x
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 11:56 AM
To: Citizen Y
Subject: RE: The election

I'll add more comments later, but for now:

I actually fear that Massachusetts may not necessarily be so safe as a Democratic state. I've been seeing too many stickers/posters and heard too many people support Bush in this state.

The transcript:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A1C-B21F-2BC36E87F61F.htm

The bin Laden tape could be seen as lame, unless he's (a) telling the truth, (b) deceiving us into not voting for two candidates that would strongly go after terrorism, or (c) he's losing power and looking for more.

As for the bin Laden affiliation, just how much of a good affiliation does Osama have with his own family? Isn't there always the black sheep of the family that hates the values that their family stands for. Honestly, I pretty much disagree with all the post-base level values that my family follows.

There could be more coming from me on this one.

Later.

-----Original Message-----
From: Citizen Y
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 1:18 PM
To: Citizen X
Subject: RE: The election

That's true I heard a lot of people on talk radio the other day saying they were going to vote Bush after hearing that tape (that's one of the things that got me scared).

Thanks for the link.

I see what you're saying, but I'm calling him lame 'cause it seems to me if he really intended to do something HE wouldn't tell us (that seemed to be his pattern I noted from the attacks he and his people do). And I think it was more to fuck with us some how (not sure how, just yet).

That's true, but I think Osama is the leader of the family (am I wrong thinking he controls the family fortune).

Later,

-Citizen Y

-----Original Message-----
From: Citizen x
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 1:30 PM
To: Citizen Y
Subject: RE: The election

Well what's your belief on bin Laden? Sincere revolutionary nationalist who won't accept anything but the domination of Muslim Arab nationalism or a guy who really just wants the end of oppression for his people? In many ways, I'm not sure, but I also don't think he should just get off scott free.

Then again, it's a perfectly political time to say something. Make it look like he's trying to be peaceful and compromise then kill, the ol' bait and switch. Hussein did it back in the day. What's to stop bin Laden? You're probably right about it either trying to fuck with us in the sense of scaring the wits out of people to have them vote otherwise or make the people think he's an all right guy or something. Either way, what he says about general motivations, tactics, and events strikes true to me. As for what he intends on happening, I'm betting you're right.

It's not going to get me to vote Bush, though.

As for who's in charge of the bin Laden fortunes, I don't know. I haven't researched it enough.

-----Original Message-----
From: Citizen Y
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 3:00 PM
To: Citizen X
Subject: RE: The election

You know they say that guerilla warfare was first used in modern warfare during the American Revolution. And the Brits considered us terrorist (I'm sure). The answer to something like that can only be answered in the legacy they leave.

I think bin Laden is a religious zealot, but then so was Moses (of course Moses didn't kill a shit-load of people, he let god do that...uh....). But either way nationalist, dominatist, or revolutionary he still did something horrible, with malice in his heart. And that, despite how you paint it, is evil. And yet there sits a statue near us of John Lee Hooker General in the Armies of the Revolution... He would regularly have young women kidnapped and would have them used as sex slaves by his men. (that's where the term Hooker comes from, talk about a lagacy). The Japanese kidnapped the island woman near Japan and used them as "comfort women" during WWII. These are the legacies our worlds are built on. These are as much Crimes Against Humanity as the towers, and there are many more.

Any man, woman, nation, or company guilty of crimes like his are guilty of them no matter they win or lose the war in which they fight. And while reality is not the same as ideals, ideals are to which we aspire. Picard (the French lawyer) once said that he fought for the ideals for which his country stood, not the realties. His comment was regarding his decades long fight to get an innocent Jewish man freed from wrongful imprisonment. A fight that cost him much more then time and money, but in the end he did win that man's freedom. Those ideals which Picard fought were not solely France's nor can any living society call them there creation. The best potential of human compassion and justice can be traced back to men who's countries were dust before Columbus first sailed in a schooner round the Mediterranean Sea. They are what make us human, despite what anything science or religion may tell us.

To end, here are QUOTES that express America for me. I place them BOTH here, even though they are nearly the same. It could just be flattery, but it could also be the universality of an IDEAL.

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
-Wendell Phillips 1852

"The condition of man's liberty is eternal vigilance."
-John Curran 1790

-----Original Message-----
From: Citizen X
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 3:07 PM
To: Citizen Y
Subject: RE: The election

BTW, when I said that bin Laden said some stuff that sounded true, I didn't mean his intentions or his goals or anything like that. I simply meant that his statements that don't have to do with him or his intentions but with abstract tactics and abstract ideals for a nation. I don't agree with him and think that you're right.

As a note, though, can a war for and against guerilla soldiers ever not take massive civilian casualties. I guess the same could be said about any war. After all, it's not really like we've got these set aside battlefields where armies and leaders, "OK, we're going to fight each other and whoever wins gets so and so." Why would anyone make that challenge or accept it if not accepting meant not having to lose so and so? War, any war, is just horrible for the place where it happens and it's all for those vying for power.

-----Original Message-----
From: Citizen y
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:29 PM
To: Citizen X
Subject: RE: The election

Sorry if I sounded preachy man. But, I do concur that much of what he was saying were valid points (although I'm not convinced he was solely responsible for bankrupting the USSR, though I digress). The world runs on money and causing that money to hemorrhage he can get attention. And while I do understand that the towers were a symbol of 'our' money and influence (more so then anything else), I think John Q. American sees the falling towers as a tragedy in terms of human life, not money lost.

Perhaps it's that top 1% who sees our loss only in terms of money, but the other 99% of us don't. And if human lives are collateral damage, then this shite here, this is funked up! But that's modern warfare man. The battlefields are no longer far removed from our villages (if they ever really were) now they ask us to report on each other as we sit on the T trying to go out on a date or whatnot. Now Civilian Casualties are just part of there game.

And let me tell you, how right you are about war. It is crazy, only crazy people start them and only the poor shmucks like us die in them. Strange isn't it, how things never really change?!?!

Bin Laden may not have been "aiming at us" like Dpz said, but they sure did hurt us. 'Cause I know for sure our leaders, weren't cleaning the floors or parking cars in the Trade Center. But what's done is done and the best thing that can be done now is look at how it happened. To work to make sure it doesn't happen again, and carrying our 'big ole stick' across the desert may not we the way to do it. That, I think, was the strongest point made on the tape. Yes the people who did it are guilty but are they the problem? Or our lack of security measures? It seems to me that it's something less tangible that was the problem and the only way to deal the abstract is by holding to the ideals that we say we stand for.

I seem to remember something from my public education, something Patrick Henry said, "I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" But I see no liberty in the eyes of the Nation Guardsmen who guard my subways, nor the Fox News anchors as they try to scare me into staying home. I see no liberty in blowing the hell out of people for boggie-men. I see no liberty in the brutalization our own people where performing on prisoners.

And there is no liberty in the lip service I hear from the government over our boys and girls dieing.

-huff-